Seth e Hórus

por **Ser ou Não Ser** 6/1/2024, 14:25

Seth, deus dos ladrões de tumbas?

Segundo Paul Johnson, sempre houve ladrões de tumbas no antigo Egito e sempre houve a preocupação de tentar proteger a tumba, o cadáver e os bens da ação sacrílega destes ladrões. A atividade destes era tanto mais intensa quanto mais erodida estivesse as crenças egípcias ou em períodos de dificuldade econômica ou guerras civis. A preocupação não foi muito eficaz e achados arqueológicos de tumbas intactas como a de Tutankhamon ou Psunenes II são eventos raros.
Então Paul Johnson manda esta: Os ladrões de tumbas agiam mais confortavelmente porque se achavam protegidos por Seth. Os ladrões de tumbas tinham uma contracultura? Seth já era demonizado? Seth originalmente protegia a baraça de Rá de ser devorada por Apepi no subterrâneo garantindo assim o dia seguinte da Terra! Seth era análogo a S Jorge, mesmo com o mito afirmando que ele foi inimigo de deuses queridos como Osíris e Hórus. Esta ideia de Paul Johnson procede? Mais alguém afirma isto?

por **Ser ou Não Ser** 6/1/2024, 14:26

Se eu fosse ladrão de tumba idolatraria a Lara Croft, hehehe...

por **Alquimista** 6/1/2024, 14:41

Seth nunca foi o deus dos ladrões. hehehe... Ele era o protetor da barca de Osiris. Ele ia na popa do barco solar que levaria o falecido no caminho para o Tribunal de Osiris e era ele que afugentava Apopis (a cobra maléfica). E ele foi um deus muito cultuado no delta do Nilo.

por **Alquimista** 6/1/2024, 14:42

Melhor explicar... Apopis era o monstro que procurava afastar o falecido do caminho para o Tribunal de Osiris. Ela é mostrada no Livro dos Mortos, como um dos problemas que o Ka (mais ou menos nosso conceito de alma) do falecido enfrentava antes de conseguir cumprir todas as tarefas descritas nesse livro.

por **Ser ou Não Ser** 6/1/2024, 14:54

Seth não era originalmente vilão.

Sim, apesar da associação entre a guerra Neken X Nacada, com a guerra mítica Horus-Seth, os faraós da II dinastia e da XIX dinastia tinham apreço pelo deus Seth. A associação de Seth com hicsos também é fraca. Eles adotaram vários deuses do panteão tradicional egípcio. A única coisa que me deixa confuso é alguns de seus reis adotarem o nome do Apepi/Apophis. Este sim desde sempre associado a escuridão, é um Boitatá que quer devorar não só almas individuais, mas Rá, o próprio espírito do Sol. E Seth/S Jorge não deixa.

por **Refael Balinha** 6/1/2024, 14:58

Vai ver que era uma forma dos Hicsos se colocarem como uma oposição ao Egito, à medida que a hostilidade entre os dois aumentou.

por **Ser ou Não Ser** 6/1/2024, 15:22

É mesmo. Mas seria um tiro no próprio pé. Um invasor que não se egipcianizasse ia ter dor de cabeça. Até imperadores romanos se permitiam serem retratados como faraós.

por **Alquimista** 6/1/2024, 19:04

Até Alexandre Magno foi sacramentado deus do Panteão egípcio...

por **Alquimista** 6/1/2024, 19:05

Até a wiki conta a história de Alexandre ter sido coroado faraó e depois no oásis de Siwa ser considerado deus... http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egito_ptolemaico#Alexandre_Magno

por **Alquimista** 6/1/2024, 19:08

Existe muita confusão entre o Horus, o velho e o Horus, filho de Isis... Este é Horus, o antigo: http://www.fascinioegito.sh06.com/haroeris.htm Portanto, aquele que lutou com Seth foi o Horus o jovem... Filho de Osiris e Isis...

por **Dree Elle** 6/1/2024, 19:17

Olá pessoal, gostaria de saber a relação entre o deus Hórus, do antigo Egito, e a figura de Jesus Cristo. Quais semelhanças existem entre as histórias de ambos?

Obrigada!

por **Alquimista** 6/1/2024, 19:25

Nenhuma, apesar dos membros de várias denominações cristãs insistirem no assunto...
Jesus não teve um tio que tenha matado o pai dele, nem abusado sexualmente dele, teve???
Não estou sendo ofensivo para a figura de Jesus, que eu respeito e muito. Mas estou começando a ficar literalmente cheio com essa mania de todo crente querer comparar Akhenaton com Salomão, Jesus com Horus, Maria com Isis...

Nenhuma teve nada a ver com os outros... Isso é uma forçada de barra brava...

por **Nefelibata** 6/1/2024, 19:29

CRENTE?

Alquimista tenho que te dizer, isto de forma alguma é coisa de crente (pelo menos um cristão). É uma técnica neo-ateísta que acredita que Jesus é Horus copiada.

Isso tudo foi herdado de um vídeo chamado "Zeitgeist" que além disso dizia que os americanos destruíram as próprias torres gêmeas....

por **Nefelibata** 6/1/2024, 19:30

hehehehe.

Assim como temos a geração "vou ao shopping e odeio o capitalismo", derivada do Michael Moore, temos a geração Zeitgeist, especialista em teorias conspiratórias inconsistentes.

por **Alquimista** 6/1/2024, 19:33

Sabe, gente... Essas teorias são consideradas perigosas até de serem citadas. Não sei se vocês sabem que elas foram acionadas pelo nazismo. E, durante muito tempo, aqui no ocidente, falar em teorias nazistas foi considerado pelo menos de mau gosto.
Até na Alemanha, o povo fez o possível para esquecer que foi usado por uma meia dúzia de loucos, que levaram o país à ruína.
Por isso, nem falem dessas teorias...

por **Dree Elle** 6/1/2024, 19:36

Eu perguntei porque vi uma comparação entre Jesus Cristo, Hórus, Zoroastro. Segundo esta, todos tiveram uma trajetória parecida. E como passou a época de Natal, tentam fazer a ligação com o dia 25 de dezembro, enfatizando que tais profetas da antiguidade nasceram no mesmo dia. Realmente, eu não conheço quase nada sobre as religiões da antiguidade.
Obrigada!

por **Alquimista** 6/1/2024, 19:38

Quanto a comparar Jesus a Horus, tudo se baseou em estatuetas com Osiris, Isis e Horus criança, que foram chamadas de "Sagrada Família"... Para mim isso é estupidez crassa, porque o que se conta sobre Horus não tem nada a ver com Jesus...
O texto abaixo é muito bem explicado. Infelizmente é em inglês. Sinto muito se alguém não entende... Mas os melhores textos são nessa língua. Isso porque os arqueólogos que mais trabalham com a Egiptologia ou são ingleses, ou norte americanos, ou franceses... E a língua usada é sempre inglês...

por **Alquimista** 6/1/2024, 19:41

Set (Seth)

Set (Seth, Setekh, Sut, Sutekh, Sety) was one of the most ancient of the Egyptian gods and the focus of worship since the Predynastic Period. As part of the Ennead of Heliopolis he was the son of Nut and Geb and the brother of Osiris, Horus the elder, Isis and Nephthys. He was a storm god associated with strange and frightening events such as eclipses, thunderstorms and earthquakes. He also represented the desert and, by extension, the foreign lands beyond the desert. His glyph appears in the Egyptian words for "turmoil", "confusion", "illness", "storm" and "rage". He was considered to be very strong but dangerous, and strange. However, he was not always considered to be an evil being. Set was a friend of the dead, helping them to ascend to heaven on his ladder, and he protected the life giving oases of the desert, and was at times a powerful ally to the pharaoh and even the sun god Ra.
Seth e Hórus Set2

The earliest representation of Set can be found on a carved ivory comb from the Amratian period (Naqada I, 4500BC - 35BC, orthodox dates) and he also appears on the famous Scorpion mace head. His worship seems to have originated in one of the most ancient settlements in the town of Nubt (Kom Ombo), in upper (southern) Egypt. Nubt (near modern Tukh) lies near the entrance to the Wadi Hammammat, the doorway to the eastern desert and its gold deposits, and the city took its name from the word for gold, Nbt (which also means ruler or lord). As a result Set was sometimes called "He of gold town". Nubt was the most important of the ancient settlements, and was located close to the site of the Naqqada settlement from which this early culture takes it name. Pre-dynastic worship of Set was also evident in the 19th and 19th Nomes of Upper Egypt.
The standard for the 11th Nome is topped by a Set animal, and the name of the main town, Sha-shtp, means "The pig (Set) is pacified", and Set was worshipped in his form as a fish in the capital of the 19th Nome.
Seth e Hórus Sethanimal

At this point in history, Set was clearly associated with Upper Egypt and was a popular and esteemed god. However, by the Second Intermediate Period he was associated with the Hyksos (who probably saw a similarity between Set and Baal) and so he became seen as a force for evil. He was then "rehabilitated" during the Nineteenth Dynasty pharaohs (notably Seti I whose name means "man of Set") only to be recast as an evil deity by Greek, Roman and Christian theologists.
Set was the black boar who swallowed the moon each month, obscuring its light. He was also identified with the hippopotamus, crocodiles, scorpions, turtles, pigs and donkeys - all animals which were considered to be unclean or dangerous. Some fish were considered to be sacred to Set (most notably the Nile carp and the Oxyrynchus) as they had apparently eaten the penis of Osiris after Set had dismembered the dead king. However, he was most often depicted as a "Set animal" or a man with the head of a "Set animal". The Set animal (sometimes known as a"Typhonian animal" because of the Greek identification with Typhon) is a dog or jackal like creature, but it is not clear whether it exactly represented an extinct species, or was a mythological beast uniquely associated with Set himself.
In the Osirian mythology he was married to Nephthys, but their marriage was not a happy one. However, Set had many other wives/concubines. According to one myth he lived in the Great Bear, a constellation in the northern sky - an area which symbolized darkness, and death. He was restrained with chains and guarded by his wife Taweret, the hippo goddess of childbirth. He was given the two foreign goddesses Anat and Astarte (war goddesses from the Syria-Palestine area and daughters of Ra) as wives in compensation for Ma´at's (or Neith's) ruling that Horus should rule Egypt.
However, he had no children, despite being married to the goddess of childbirth and a Cannanite fertility goddess as well as Nephthys and Neith. This was considered to be very unconventional by the Egyptians. Not only was he infertile, but one of his testicles had been torn off by Horus when Set tore out Horus' eye. He only ate lettuce, which was sacred to the fertility god Min because it secreted a white, milky substance that the Egyptians linked to semen and he was considered to have odd sexual habits. He was bisexual, and tried (and failed) to rape both Horus and Isis.

Set's battle with Horus (the elder and the child) and Osiris

During the Old Kingdom and the Middle Kingdom Horus the elder and Set represented Upper and Lower Egypt. They were often depicted together symbolising the union of Upper and Lower Egypt. He was equal to the hawk god (Horus the Elder, not Horus son of Isis), if not always his ally. Horus represented the sky during the daytime, while Set represented the night time sky. When these two gods were linked, the two were said to be Horus-Set, a man with two heads - one of the hawk of Horus, the other of the Set animal.
Although they fought, neither party could win and it was believed that they would continue to fight until the end of time when Ma'at was destroyed and the waters of Nun (chaos) engulfed the world. However, once Set had been recast as an evil entity, the story changed to record that Horus had won their battle, and thus good had triumphed over evil. Some historians have argued that the battle between Set and Horus was a mythological representation of the struggle to unite Egypt under one ruler. According to this theory, the followers of Horus were successful and so Set was pushed into the background.
It is interesting to note that the pharaoh Sekhemhib displayed his name in a serekh topped by a Set animal, not a falcon (representing Horus), while Khasekhemwy's serekh included both a Set animal and a falcon. This has been taken as evidence that the battle between Upper and Lower Egypt had been won and the ruler wished to appease both factions.

Even as an infant he was dangerous and unpredictable. According to the pyramid texts he ripped himself violently from his mother's womb instead of being born normally like his siblings. Set was jealous of his brother Osiris. Two reasons are given for this jealousy. The first is that Osiris was made Pharaoh of Egypt after Geb resigned the throne. Set felt that he should have been given this accolade, and wished to usurp the throne. The second reason is that, according to one myth, his wife Nephthys tricked Osiris into having sex with her (by disguising herself as her sister Isis, the wife of Osiris), and bore him a son - Anubis. Set was understandably unhappy about the situation but seems to have held his grudge against his (more handsome) brother Osiris rather than his unfaithful wife. Whatever the reason, Set decided that his brother had to die.
He made a great feast, supposedly in honour of Osiris, and offered a beautifully carved chest to whichever guest would fit into it. Of course, the chest was built to fit Osisris, and when he lay down inside it, Set's followers nailed the lid shut and threw the chest into the Nile. Isis managed to find the chest and bring it back to Egypt. However, Set discovered the chest and dismembered the corpse of his brother, spreading the parts all over the country. Isis and Nepthys began their search for the pieces of Osiris, but his penis could not be found (because it was swallowed by a fish in the Nile). Undaunted, Isis reassembled the pieces and magically conceived her child, Horus. When he grew up he fought with Set, essentially adopting the position of Horus the Elder as the enemy of Set. This of course, added to the confusion between Horus the Elder and Horus the son of Isis and Set's role changed from being an equal to his brother Horus the Elder, to the evil uncle of his nephew Horus the child.

Set the protector

Despite the role he was given in the death of Osiris, Set was considered to be the defender of the sun god Ra. he protected the solar barque on its journey through the underworld (or the night sky) and fought the serpent Apep. Yet even when he was acting to protect Ra, the negative side of his personality was apparent. He often boasted that he was the only one of the gods brave enough to stand against Apep and demanded that he be treated with great respect. He even threatened Ra that if he was not treated well enough he would bring storms against him. Ra eventually tired of his taunting and expelled Set from his barque, relying on the help of the other gods to complete his nightly journey.
He was thought to have white skin and red hair, and people with red hair were thought to be his followers. He was associated with the desert (which takes its name from the Egyptian word "dshrt" - the red place). He represented the fierce dry heat of the sun as it parched the land, and was infertile like the desert. Initially he probably represented the desert near Nubt, but soon he represented all deserts and foreign lands, becoming a god of overseas trade. Set had been associated with the desert and foreigners for some time before the Hyksos took over parts of lower Egypt. However, when they took him as their main god, this broke Set's association withLower Egypt. His name was erased from monuments and his statues destroyed. All of his negative attributes were emphasised and his positive side was ignored.
But Set's fortunes soon changed. The Pharaohs of the Nineteenth Dynasty were from the Delta area where worship of Set was still popular. It is also interesting that both Seti I (who even named himself after Set) and Ramesses II seem to have had red hair. Although Amun was the state god, Set was more highly venerated in the Delta. Ramesses II's divided his army into four divisions, and named one after Set. When he fought the Hittities he was described as being "like Set in the moment of his power" and "like Set, great-of-strength". He even named his daughter Bint-Anat (Daughter of Anath, Set's wife).
The Greeks associated Set with Typhon, the largest monster ever born. Typhon was the son of the Earth and Tartarus (the place of torture in Hades), and thoroughly evil. Both were storm gods associated with the colour red and with pigs (whose meat was considered to be unclean by many cultures including the Egyptians). However, unlike Typhon Set had a protective role and even in his negative aspects the Egyptians understood his place in the world. He was dangerous and unpredictable, but could be a powerful friend. During the Ptolemaic period a temple to both Horus and Sobek (who was often associated with Set as both took the form of a crocodile) was built south of Nubt and named Ombos (now known as Kom Ombos) after the god of the ancient city - Set.
Bibliography

Bard, Kathryn (2008) An introduction to the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt
Budge, E Wallis (1904) The Gods of the Egyptians
Goodenough, Simon (1997) Egyptian Mythology
Kemp, Barry J (1991) Ancient Egypt: Anatomy of a Civilisation
Pinch, Geraldine (2002) Handbook Egyptian Mythology
Watterson, Barbara (1996) Gods of Ancient Egypt
Wilkinson, Richard H. (2003) The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt

por **Alquimista** 6/1/2024, 19:43

Quando o imperador Constantino (romano) decidiu adotar o Cristianismo com sua religião, viu que teria que fazer um arranjo para misturar as várias religiões e fazer o povo acreditar que Jesus era uma espécie de reencarnação de vários mitos. Assim, mudaram muito da história de Jesus, para fazer ela coincidir com as de Zoroastro. Quanto ao dia 25 de dezembro, nessa data era comemorado o dia do deus Sol Invicto (um deus que vinha dos religiões persas também e que tinha sido escolhido pelos soldados do império como o seu deus predileto - com os exércitos, os imperadores romanos não se metiam kkkk).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus

por **Alquimista** 6/1/2024, 19:45

E, infelizmente, o que Jesus queria quando começou a pregar a sua religião, foi também disvirtuado.
E, hoje, as diversas denominações cristãs que andam pelo mundo afora, usam não a palavra de Jesus, mas o que Constantino mandou que fosse novamente redigido, para facilitar o uso da religião cristã em benefício do Império e do próprio imperador...

Isso se chama mudar a história em benefício próprio...

por **Nefelibata** 6/1/2024, 19:48

Alquimista, você que é especialista em Egito ficaria abismado.

Eles dizem que Hórus nasceu em 25 de Dezembro de uma VIRGEM, andou sobre as águas, realizou atos milagrosos (dâ! Qualquer deus faz isso), teve 12 discípulos, foi tentado por SET no deserto durante 40 dias, morreu em uma cruz e ressuscitou!

Tenho até pena da imagem deturpada do coitado do Hórus... a lembrança dele é um dos seus últimos legados para a nossa cultura, e isso conspiracionistas fazem o favor de avacalhar.

por **Dree Elle** 6/1/2024, 19:51

Sim, Nefelibata, eu fiz a pergunta justamente porque vi tais comentários. Como sei muito pouco sobre as religiões da antiguidade, resolvi postar uma pergunta sobre o assunto no tópico.

por **Alquimista** 6/1/2024, 20:13

Tudo isso foi inventado durante o início da religião cristã no Egito. Quando Constantino mandou que se realizasse o Conselho de Nicéia, para que a religião cristã se organizasse em uma só religião (existiam várias vertentes do Cristianismo naquela época). Existiam no Egito várias seitas cristãs e cada uma interpretava a vida de Jesus de um modo.
E havia também o problemão da religião egípcia, que ainda tinha muita força. Mas os cristãos do Egito eram muito agressivos. Eles começaram a perseguir os sacerdotes egípcios. Muitos morreram defendendo suas fés. Mas o povo, apesar de estar simpatizando com o Cristianismo, continuava a adorar alguns deuses do panteão egípcio. Horus era um... Então, foi inventada essa "similaridade" com Cristo...

Em primeiro lugar, havia dois Horus. O Velho Horus e o Novo Horus...
O culto a ele vinha da época pré-dinástica. Tinha, portanto, quase três mil anos de idade. O velho Horus não tinha essas características apontadas como iguais às de Cristo... Mas o novo passou a ter, para combinar com Jesus e o povo aceitar o culto cristão.

No sul do Egito sabemos que as religiões egípcias foram perseguidas, os templos depredados e os sacerdotes mortos. Tudo isso por cristãos, porque no lugar da figura dos deuses egípcios, foram gravadas cruzes...

por **Alquimista** 6/1/2024, 20:13

Portanto, esse conceito de cristão bonzinho e perseguido pelos romanos, cristãos sendo mortos pela fé, é meio relativo...
Os cristãos também mataram muita gente, para forçar o povo a aceitar a nova religião que, para o Império e para Constantino iria ser muito útil.
Vejam o que o concílio decidiu:

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primeiro_Conc%C3%ADlio_de_Niceia

por **Alquimista** 6/1/2024, 20:14

E se vocês tiverem paciência para ler tudo, vejam como as controvérsias não passavam de politicalha e a vontade de todos era adquirir poder.

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controv%C3%A9rsia_ariana

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